I have The Holy Bible containing the old and new testaments'. Authorized King James Version Red Letter Edition the New Encyclopedic Reference Edition. Abingdon's Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Of The Bible as well, copy right 1890. My baby step journey started with The Shepherds Chapel. Now, still a member I research diligently (Hebrews/Greek) with prayer to stay on course with Our Father. Kenites have worked their way into everything to twist the truth, so I use caution. TSC does teach and break it down in Hebrew and Greek which is great.
"Yes, World War III and mRNA injections will provide the global culling of human populations that Bill Gates, Henry Kissinger, the Rockefellers and other powerful interests have been advocating for decades."
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BINGO!
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Go back to the "Georgia Guide Stones" - where this GENOCIDE-Agenda was carved in Stone for 40 years in America - NOW THEY DO WHAT THEY WROTE - get down humanity to only half a billion . . .
Yes, some are listening. Some are opting out to one degree or another.
I do not believe that any amount of human effort is going to stop what is happening. There is no indication in the prophecies of Revelation or elsewhere that it will. Jesus himself will put an end to it, before the world would otherwise destroy itself.
So opt-out where possible, resist and oppose as you are able, but don't become overly self-protective. What we really can do, those that know it, is spread the word, the words of the true gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ (which may well not be what you would hear "in church", depending on where you went).
Sharing the gospel is becoming a little easier, sometimes, as people (some of them) see their world crumbling to pieces and don't know what to do, and begin to open up to new possibilities. Surrendering one's life to God and being saved through the blood of Jesus is the only truly effective opt-out.
My preferred "checkout experience" is cash, which I'm using more and more these days. Word is getting out: yesterday's visit to the supermarket showed 4 customers employing the "cash" kiosks", while the four "credit only" kiosks stood idle.
Another supermarket only allows credit cards at its kiosks. Those stand idle at a time when the supermarket is being forced to employ more and more cashiers to service the additional cash transactions.
It's all pre-conditioning for the eventual mark of the beast (the anti-christ, the 'world's savior'), which I believe will be implemented within 10 - 25 yrs.
"He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666."
It might or it might not. I was brought up to believe that the tribulation would come in the 1970s. That was off by at least 50 years. Maybe more. But I can tell you, the signs we were looking for then are all over us now.
I tend to think in terms of our resurrection, rather than the rapture. I hear far too many speaking as if they expect to be rescued from persecution by the rapture.
I see no guarantee in scripture that any dedicated follower of Jesus is immune from persecution and martyrdom. "John 15:18 “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 “If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you."
That much is guaranteed. Also, this is somewhat out of context, but it illustrates the principle. "Luke 21:16 “But you will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, other relatives, and friends, and they will put some of you to death, 17 and you will be hated by all people because of My name. 18 “And yet not a hair of your head will perish. 19 “By your endurance you will gain your lives."
And there went Jesus again, speaking about enduring to the end, when he could have simply said "once saved, always saved." I see the two as intertwined, but I see enduring to the end (whatever our end might be) as a proper attitude, and "once saved, always saved" as me-focused and less than the best. Why is it that I virtually never hear the former from church people?
15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[a] That number is 666.
Just remember, they can stamp you all over until the cows come home. What is in your forehead is your/our brain. Keep Christ in your head, heart, works and soul. Their will come a time that if you will worship the false one who comes down first impostering the True Christ you will want for nothing. As it says in the Bible "All the world will be deceived except for the elect. Elect are not above or better than anyone else except for the fact they know the false christ comes down first to deceive. Don't be deceived by satan.
Trying to understand Revelations? You'll be at that my friend, a very long time, and never come to any kind of resolution... "The Revelation to Saint John" purports to be written by the Apostle John while he was exiled on the island of Patmos, was written towards the end of the 1st century when the early Christian church was heavily persecuted by the Romans under the Emperor Domitian, and was written to comfort the original believers. Moreover the early church flatly declared Christ's return was to happen with the lifetime of his first followers... which was 2,000 years ago... It is is full of imagery, metaphors and entendres very relevant to them, the meaning of which have simply become lost to us 2 millenia later. It very nearly wasn't accepted into the Canon and a number of Orthodox and eastern churches reject it.
That said, could it have any bearing on our situation in the here and now? It very well could, the books in the bible are transcendent, miraculous and eternal. Why don't you book an appointment with the Minister / Pastor / Priest of your church and asking him what would be good books to read, where would be a good place to gain some undestanding? In the meantime? Read your bible, pray, search for community with like-minded people. I draw your attention away from Revelations and to St. Paul's Letter to the Ephesians:
"10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."
Two items in conclusion
1. My wife put me onto this, it's well worth your investment of time to listen to it; the Bible Mysteries podcast by Scott Mitchell: https://bible-mysteries.captivate.fm/
PS As for "the endless evil darkness surrounding humanity" -- bear in mind this is a constant of life on Earth; for whatever reason, Satan is the Lord of this world... 🤔
PPS One last thing: For heaven's sakes: Look to your "preps". Time is growing very short.
Revelation was foretold for this generation. We are The Fig Tree Generation. When Israel 1948 became a Nation. Forty, seventy and 120 years. We are now in the 120. Just watch the signs and we are clearly in your face seeing them. Yes, there has been confusion forever. Satan does have control. Right now, it is spiritual until he gets booted out of heaven with his groupies. Then he will have a short time to gather as many as possible in his camp thinking they will be raptured. Which is a lie/false doctrine. He looks like Christ but is not and do wonders to fool the world. Where will he be? Jerusalem. That is our Fathers favorite place. God gives us many signs when he returns. When the two witnesses preach the Gospel in the streets they will be killed. They will be left there to mock. Three days pass and they return to heaven and then Christ returns. No one knows the hour. God is not the author of confusion..
LMAO!!! When he comes here, he will be beautiful kind and loving. One key is we will still be in flesh bodies. That being said, when the TRUE CHRIST comes down instantly we will be changed into spiritual bodies. Because our Father is PURE! Satan cannot do that. BUT he will do wonders that I am sure will be mind blowing. Don't be fooled. If I have to I will duct tape you to a chair. Satan will only have a short period of time. I think it is 4 1/2 months. You can handle that. So, yes when satan is kicked out onto the world ALL will know. It will be Jerusalem. Watch. He will have that short period of time. Remember another key from our Father. The witnesses. Satan will come down peacefully and prosperously. Not with horns and a pitchfork. I think it was Paul and others in the Bible that said they wanted to come down during this time.
PS. I was not laughing at you. I just thought it was sweet when you said "Please say yes." Think about this FT at least when satan comes down you and I will stay in the field and wait for CHRIST.
This evil eon is about to end, next 2 eons will be millennial reign of Christ, and after the new heaven and new earth, and after that is a consummation, when God will be All in all.
For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
The last enemy is being abolished: death.
For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)
PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS (1): 22-28 Concordant Literal NT
And He is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first,
for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell,
and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens.
Religion does not talk about the Glorious consummation of the aions (ages) misstranslated in KJV ans other main stream versions into "world, "forevers and evers" etc.
The One-World Beast System Is Roaring Into Reality but Is Anyone Listening? That is very telling. Our Father warns us to be watcherman. These are times just like in the days of Noah. I don't need to go into detail. Disgusting!
Notice lots of earthquakes in divers' places? The four hidden dynasties? Political, Financial, Education and Religion all being corrupt and controlled by evil. Of course, they always have but now it is very clear and, in our face, full throttle. Satan and his angels will be kicked out of heaven in the not-so-distant future. Fasten your spiritual seal belts brothers and sisters. God Bless
Please don't lose hope or faith. I have been in more churches than I can count. Just a bunch of bake sales and pass the basket. I felt empty. Finally, praying so much for the truth basically out of nowhere a person came into my life. This church teaches word for word verse by verse God's letter to us. The Original King James Bible. I was so overwhelmed. So, I am grateful they clarify for me in teachings. If you contact them, they will send you a free postage paid gift (CD, The Mark Of the Beast) to help you understand. After that they will send you scripture newsletters monthly that help you with your walk. It shows/reads scripture and then breaks it down and explains God's word. Now that being said. He strongly says to research if ever in doubt with a Strongs Concordance & Websters New World Dictionary. They always say, "Lean on God not man." Also, The King James Companion Bible is a great one to get. Those can be purchased through them if you like. On You Tube >> Pastor Arnold Murray revelation. Their church is in Gravette, Arkansas. I wanted to drive to Arkansas to meet him and his family. Never got there. He passed on in 2017 I think. Might be wrong on that date. Anyway, the family still airs Pastor Murray on Television and You Tube. Dennis Murray the son continues on with the church now. I have Dish Network, so it airs 24/7. I am so grateful for that! They can help you find the correct channel for your network. You can call them Monday thru Friday 7am to 3pm. Call, they are lovely folks. You can order the free offer online also.
If you look beyond the bake sales, you will find widespread metabolic disease, from eating industrial "food" that is not the food that God has given us.
I consider the KJV to be a good translation but one that has issues like all the translations and all of the extant original language texts do. I sometimes quote phrases or verses from it because it is the one from which I learned many of the Bible verses I know. I don't normally use it for outreach because of the archaic dialect, which most of the people I try to reach do not know. I only know it because I was taught it, growing up, 50-70 years ago.
The other problem I have with the KJV is that the dialect, to many people, is "religious-sounding language", which makes it very easy for them to dismiss the words without a further thought.
I do not and cannot regard the KJV as a religious artifact to be venerated.
I work primarily with the NASB 2020, CSB, ESV, NA28 Greek NT, HMT-W4 Hebrew OT, Rahlfs Greek LXX OT, NIV 2011 (my church's preferred translation, not mine), KJV & NKJV, NLT, Mounce NT, and NET. A multitude of witnesses, as it were.
You will not find the word “hell”, or phrases such as “eternal punishment” or“forever and ever”, in literal, accuracy-focused English Bible translations like The Concordant Version or Young’s Literal Translation.
This is because the word “hell” andwords like “eternal”, “forever”, and “everlasting” are nowhere to be found in the original language (Hebrew and Greek) manuscripts of the Bible.'
I glanced through the Forbidden Theology book and found, as expected, 57 references to Augustine and several to Plato. That seems to be where the doctrine comes from, and that is what I was taught growing up. Also, my first two adult churches were conditionalist. My official belief is that God can and will do as he chooses, but I have done my own original-language word studies using better research tools than those shown in the YouTube video linked above, and I do not personally find adequate support for the ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) doctrine/dogma in scripture. It is the doctrine/dogma of the immortal soul (i.e. everyone has one already) in disguise, made explicit in the unbelievable evangelistic phrase "would you rather spend eternity in heaven or in hell".
I have read a number of apologetic essays and even whole books on this subject, and always something made-up is thrown in to cinch the deal, because the doctrine isn't directly found in scripture. I continue asking God to show me one solid scriptural argument supporting the doctrine, not involving flame-proof resurrection bodies or "if there isn't a hell then what did Jesus die to save us from" or "'perish' has a wide range of meanings in the Greek", and he has not done so. The arguments have always reasoned from the conclusion, in one way or another.
The "other" heavily under-quoted neighbor verse to John 3:16, John 3:14-15: “And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him." That is what Jesus died for.
That sounds rather conditional to my ear. But of course, "in him" can also be used to steer off in a less obvious direction, and in the Greek the scholarly discussion explores the matter of "semantic domains" and differences between Hellenistic Greek and Koine, resulting, in some modern translations such as the one above, in "in him" being moved to the end of the clause from where it appears in the Greek. There is again a danger in that of "reasoning from the conclusion", i.e. reasoning from the doctrine, rather than testing it.
The Greek reads "ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ2 ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον." A very bare translation might be "that all believing in him will have eternal life". Bill Mounce, the Greek scholar and Bible translator from whose materials I have been studying Greek, translates it "so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life". The Greek words "ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον", literally "will have life eternal", repeat verbatim at the end of v. 16. "Will have" (or "may have") is in the present active subjunctive, rather than future tense, but I don't have any commentary about that in my reference materials, and either of those does not sound like an unusual way to translate it to me. I still have a great deal of work to do toward understanding Greek verbs.
Maybe it is not so much that I am a conditionalist as that I refuse to employ the above kind of fear (eternal life in hell) to "encourage" non-believers. That is hard to distinguish from what our evil "Rulers" are doing now to the world's population. The Father draws, not me.
The fact you're taking the trouble to learn New Testament Greek puts you way ahead of the curve, still, I'll offer you these items as food for thought...
I once asked a lapsed-Catholic friend of mine “where did the doctrine of The Holy Trinity come from?” And Alan snorted derisively and replied “Hunh! They made it up...” A hard-to-swallow notion for The Faithful, but even harder is to learn, via Tim Callahan's “Secret Origins of the Bible” (1) that YHWH, The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, was known and indeed revered in many other cultures: The Philistines called him Baal, and his sacred beast was the bull. The Carthaginians called him Moloch, and sacrificed their first born to him – echoed in the appalling story of God demanding Abraham sacrifice Isaac... the portion in Genesis about the angel intervening and Abraham finding a ram trapped in the bushes was a later insertion.. In the original Abraham sacrificed Isaac, and that was that. The Greeks called him “Zeus” and again, his sacred animal was the bull, symbolised by Zeus in the form of a bull kidnapping and raping Europa; later on the Romans appropriated him and renamed him “Jupiter”...
None of this stuff is original. The myth of the sacrificed god who is crucified, dead and buried (or whatever) and returns to life on the third day? It’s as old as time. The Egyptians had a version of it, in the myth of Osiris and Set.. The Norse had a version in the form of the death of Baldur the Sun God – except in their version pessimists that they were, Baldur was cheated of resurrection by Loki. Even the American Indians had a version of it in the form of The Maize Spirit! Learn all about it in Tom Harpur’s “The Pagan Christ” (2). I met a Zorastrian once, who demonstrated to me how all the accoutrements of Orthodox Judaism was directly taken from his religion. Eerie.
Thus the conundrum. The fact you’re taking the trouble to learn New Testament Greek is commendable. But that doesn’t change the reality that many of those old Greeks were liars and full of shit, that all of religion is taken from somewhere else and where it isn’t? Well? They made something up on the spot to suit their circumstances. Consider the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory or “The Donation of Constantine”: The church fathers made up the first, the “Donation of Constantine” was an 8th-Century fraud so obvious a Grade 6 student would see through it. And yet The Faithful believe. More appalling examples (among others) are Mormonism or Scientology. Try telling an adherent of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that Joseph Smith was a grifter, a psychopath and an habitual criminal. Good luck with that. Tell the Scientologists that L. Ron Hubbard was a disciple of Aleister Crowley and see if the greasy grey glimmerings of bull-goose enlightenment begins to glow in their eyes. It won’t, I promise you. It’s all connivance and fraud from beginning to end, with the teeniest little bit of genuine Revelation thrown in at the end that’s as tricky as a will-o’-the-wisp ...🤔😳
Probably one of the most useful books you may ever read is “The Trickster and the Paranormal” by George Hansen (3). It’s dense, it’s scholarly, it’s very difficult – took me three tries to eventually complete it – and it will creep the hell out of you, I promise. He quotes at length from researcher John Keele who was moved to ask, not "is there a God?" but the much more disturbing question: "Is God sane?"
I’ll conclude with telling you that despite the above, as far as God and Christ are concerned, I’m like Fox Mulder: I want to believe.🙄
I am aware of the things you are pointing out. I was raised in a heretical church that rejected a fair amount of orthodoxy. I left after I turned 21, and ultimately took up company with the critical scholars (literally, sometimes -- I've had lunch and talked with some of them), where I got even more earfuls of this kind of information, reading their books and other writings. I may have spent more time with those things than in the Bible. I never added it up. My longest church membership was as a Unitarian Universalist, which church I joined after I left the faith the _second_ time.
I see what you are saying. I also see other things, and I make choices under guidance. My relationship is not with books or languages or scholars. It is with God.
Here is the entry from the Mounce Expository Dictionary, which is less technical than the BDAG, and biblically oriented. (If you wonder why so much Mounce, it is because I study using his grammars, he is a Bible translator -- ESV and NIV -- and these reference works are expensive and I therefore only have a limited collection of them.) And by the way, that bar over the Latin "o" -- ō -- represents omega, hard "o" as in the word "oh", as opposed to omicron, soft "o".
Noun: αἰών (aiōn), GK G172 (S G165), 122x. aiōn can indicate “prolonged time, eternity, an age, a time of the world.” The English word “eon” is derived from this word. The prophets predicted the sufferings of the Messiah, fulfilled in Jesus, and his return “long ago through his holy prophets” (Acts 3:21). When Jesus restored sight to a blind man, the healed man declared, “never since the world began [lit., “from aiōn”] has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind” (Jn. 9:32).
aiōn can represent an “age.” In the parable of the sower, Jesus speaks of a group of seeds choked out by “the cares of this world” (Mk. 4:19). The gospel Paul proclaims is that God’s wisdom is not like the wisdom of “this age,” but is “God’s wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory” (1 Cor. 2:7). Similarly, the mystery of Christ crucified for the salvation of the world and of his residence within the faithful is “the mystery that has been hidden throughout the ages and generations” (Col. 1:26). Jesus promises a reward for anyone who gives up everything for his sake both in this age, and “in the age to come,” he or she will receive eternal life (Mk. 10:29–30).
One frequent idiomatic usage of this word is an expression that literally translates, “unto the ages” or “unto the ages of the ages.” In our Bibles, this is usually translated “forever” (e.g., Lk. 1:33; Jn. 6:51) or “forever and ever” (e.g., Heb. 13:21). God the Father is and that attribute is reported in the NT to extend to Christ: “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever” (Gal. 1:5; Heb. 13:8).See NIDNTT-A, 25–27.
And then here is αἰώνιος:
Adjective: αἰώνιος (aiōnios), GK G173 (S G166), 71x. This adjective typically functions in three settings: the eternity of God and the divine realm; the blessings of salvation; and everlasting conditions that have neither beginning nor end. Forty-three times aiōnios is linked with “life,” particularly in John’s writings.
(1) The only place where aiōnios describes God himself as eternal is Rom. 16:26. However, his glory and Spirit are eternal (Heb. 9:13; 1 Pet. 5:10), and he himself is immortal (1 Tim. 6:16). Jesus is the source of “eternal salvation” (Heb. 5:9), delivering the righteous from “eternal” fire and judgment (Mt. 18:8; 25:41; 2 Thess. 1:9; Heb. 6:2; Jude 7). There is only one sin that will never be forgiven (i.e., “an eternal sin”), namely, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Mk. 3:29–30).
(2) One of the great blessings of salvation is “eternal life.” This is the gift of God for anyone who believes in Jesus (e.g., Jn. 3:16; 1 Tim. 1:16; 6:12; Rom. 2:7; 5:21). Such life originates with God, and we receive it only by his grace. The rich young man who asked Jesus how to obtain eternal life was pointed first to the commandments (indicating the need for righteousness), then to the “impossible” act of faith of selling everything and following him—impossible for a human being, but entirely possible for God (Mt. 19:16; Mk. 10:11).
(3) God’s kingdom is eternal, having [p. 221] neither beginning nor end (2 Pet. 1:11). Those who believe receive an “eternal inheritance” (Heb. 9:15). The resurrected body will also be eternal, dwelling forever in heaven (2 Cor. 5:1ff.). See NIDNTT-A, 25–27.
The first clause of Psalm 45:6 in the LXX (Septuagint, Greek OT) is
This is a trickier double form of αἰώνιος where it appears first in the accusative with its article, in agreement with the preposition εἰς, and then in the genitive (possessive), again with its article. I have also seen this form in the NT. It's over my head in terms of the nuances of NT Greek grammar, let alone the older LXX Greek.
A simple raw translation might be something like "your throne, God, is in the forever of forever. The "forever" folds in on itself through the use of the possessive in the 2nd instance. This clause appears in Hebrews 1:8 where it is letter for letter identical (noting that capitalization and punctuation are not in the originals):
I was hoping to find more about εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος in my NT references, but I did not.
Meanwhile, back at the video, where we were hearing about αἰώνιος as if it were αἰών ("eon"), and τοῦ αἰῶνος is being treated as plural, as in the English translations I guess, when it is singular in the Greek. (My patience is beginning to wear thin.) But he appears to be quoting other authors, not Greek NT scripture.
There are reasons why the same Greek word might be translated into a variety of English words. Often for readability, but also because the Greek word may mean different things in different contexts. This is the "range of meanings" to which I referred above. They are two different languages that work two different ways!
At this point, the speaker in the video begins to lose all credibility. He might have some good ideas, but he doesn’t appear to be able to read or understand the Greek himself, and he is hard to follow when he has switched from one Greek word to another, apparently without realizing it. Then he says there is no adjective for αἰών when αἰώνιος is the adjective, but with a somewhat different meaning, based upon historical usage. And he again references it in the accusative, not knowing the lexical form. This is very basic stuff.
And by now I have lost track of which scripture he is talking about. Except he seems to be saying "anywhere it appears", but referencing the wrong Greek word, the noun transliterated "eon", not the adjective translated "forever". This makes it rather difficult to validate what he is saying.
"εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος" is indeed an interesting phrase, and I would like to understand it better. Unfortunately, this video was not helping. I might come back to it; I don't know. Right now I have to go.
In closing, another of my favorites is found in Rev. 4:8,
Ἅγιος ἅγιος ἅγιος
κύριος ὁ θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ,
ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος.
"Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come!"
John is actually using poor Greek grammar here, but he appears to do this for a reason in various places, in an attempt to preserve subtleties of the Hebrew while translating into Greek (long story, some other time). There is so much to learn.
[This comment was too long -- had to split it. This is part 1.]
I'll admit, the derivation of "eternal" from the Greek is "interesting". Part of what makes the Greek and the Hebrew languages interesting, however, is the range of meanings embodied in their words. I tend to assume that the original authors knew these ranges well, and chose their words with the ranges in mind. Then along come the English language translators, picking just one possible interpretation of a word, sometimes one translation committee picking one, and another picking another,, based upon tradition and "readability", and English readers then think that that is what was originally written.
Looking at the Greek of the ending of John 3:16, we have "πᾶς … ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον". I've added "πᾶς" -- "all" as the subject of the verb, appearing earlier in the verse. "ἀλλ’" is a contraction of "ἀλλa’" -- "rather" -- due to the otherwise double vowel. So we have something like "all … rather may have life eternal". Subject and verb are singular, so we have subject-verb agreement. πᾶς is nominative -- the subject -- and ζωὴν (zōēn -- life) is accusative -- the object of the verb. So far, so good. Good translation, nothing tricky that I see. αἰώνιον, the word in question, is an adjective agreeing in gender and number with its noun (accusative singular).
Where, then, does time come in? Not in the adjective, but in the verb. The verb ἔχῃ is in the present active subjunctive which has, I believe, undefined aspect. If I understand this (which I might not -- I warned you about me and Greek verbs), it says nothing about time.
I've watched the video you linked to. As is so often the case, he is confused about pronunciation, but t least he admits it. There is an academic Greek convention (also called Erasmian) and if you simply read the phonetic markings as they appear there on his screen (identifying the specific Greek vowels), there is no confusion, whether using academic or modern Greek pronunciation, or one of the others. It's not important, mostly a pet peeve, but also a "heads up" for me.
Another peculiarity is that he is focusing on the inflected form, αἰώνιον, in the accusative, as opposed to the lexical form, αἰώνιος, in the nominative. It might be a good sign, however, since he is in this instance using the actual inflected form from the biblical text, and since those that only use the lex sometimes turn out to be using Strongs, and may not have any idea what they are looking at.
More concerning is that αἰώνιος (indeterminate as to duration, eternal, everlasting) is a distinct Greek word from αἰών (a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an Aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe).
These definitions are short ones from the Mounce Greek dictionary. I could quote the whole of the BDAG for these two words, but I think it would only be confusing. Suffice it to say that αἰών has multiple ancient meanings, some involving finite time and some not.
For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. - John 3:16
John 3:14-15: And, according as Moses exalts the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of Mankind be exalted, that everyone believing on Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian.
Aionian (eonian.) does not mean eternal, only God is eternal, eternity has no beginning no end. Punishment with no beginning and no end? believers will have life with no beginning and no end? Just makes no sense .
Thank you. I grew up in a heretical church cult that somehow got a few things right, including some things that you mentioned. I eventually learned to read the Bible for what it said instead of what it is "supposed to say" according to tradition, doctrine, or whatever, although it was a long, long journey. More recently I began studying the ancient Greek, and I am tiptoeing into the Hebrew now. It is a different world. Not totally different by any means, but the emphasis and the patterns of similar words used in different places are preserved, and the words that aren't there aren't there.
I don't know for sure, but I am afraid that many or possibly even most Christians may not have taken even the first step, which is to read the Bible itself at all, regularly.
Those who do might come to different conclusions about different parts, but we can talk about it. We don't have perfect understanding, but we can always learn new things.
Wow. Yes, that is an arduous journey. I have all of the books for research. However, I like The Shepherd's Chapel because they break it down for me and explain. If in doubt I research which they say to do. Thank you Clear. We can talk about it and always learn. Amen
I hadn't heard of The Shepherd's Chapel. I must say they have quite a detailed statement of faith! I find that chapter by chapter and book by book is the way to go, which appears to be what they do. The chapters should be in order, generally, but the book order can vary, as long as all are included.
There is also much historical and cultural context to be learned. Also some passages contain cultural idiom that may not be at all obvious. It is important to pick these things up too, but understand that some such information you receive may be in error. You will need to hear from more than one witness.
There is always more to discover when studying the Bible.
in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will Eph 1: 5
in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will Eph 1: 11
Hate to tell you this Lionness but it's ALL pagan doctrines.. everything in Christianity -- just like everything in Judaism -- is borrowed from somewhere else. I'm like Fox Mulder: I want to believe, but... where do we go from here?
You could be right with regard to "Christianity", but there is more to the story than that. I would have totally agreed with you at one time, during a large portion of my life. Eventually, however, I was shown how to see beyond churches and their bad behaviors, and to engage with certain of them (that weren't totally off-track) without engaging in the wrongdoing. Sometimes I have to hold my nose, but assembling together can be a good thing, if things aren't too haywire.
This is not "orthodox", but it is tested. If you want to believe, try asking God (or the universe, or whatever name like that that you want to start with) directly for answers. And then listen, flexibly. The answers come in all kinds of ways.
You already believe in Babylonian Mystery Religion lie. What exactly was "borrowed" and when? Please don't give me statements found in new age websites give me textual and historical proof.
But i can tell you in advance they don't have it. Just like ancient aliens lie was refuted by Dr. Heiser, he also refuted that " everything in Christianity -- just like everything in Judaism -- is borrowed from somewhere else". The notion does not hold water , but it's pushed by the satanic power alone with multiple other deception, organized religions lies, new age, etc. anything goes as long as people stay away from the truth of the Gods word.
FT Oh they will be defeated! BIG TIME! The garbage lies that has been taught to us will be like a lightning bolt what you learn. Satan is a scriptural lawyer and is brilliant at twisting God's Word. So many deceitful lies. Most churches don't teach who the Kenites are. The truth about Adam and Eve and a boat load more. I used to be afraid of Revelation. Again, another fear tactic. Revelation in the bible is God telling us what is coming down the pike so we will not be misled. How beautiful is that? God Bless
I feel like a pariah whenever I try to talk about these things to other believers. Of all people, they should recognize the signs of the times from studying their Bibles, but they either look at me blankly or outright deny anything is happening that hasn't happened before. I know not one -aside from a pastor in Hawaii- who understands we cannot correct this politically but that we stand at the edge of time.
I have read about Luciferase but never read it stands for the Lucifer’s race. I recently read that a demon exciorcised by a monk stated that three shots are required to convert DNA and the fetal tissue used in shots had dark magic rituals to change behavior and beliefs of vaccinated. Would have thought this was crazy thinking three years ago but now I do not discount it. This is a spiritual battle.
I have The Holy Bible containing the old and new testaments'. Authorized King James Version Red Letter Edition the New Encyclopedic Reference Edition. Abingdon's Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Of The Bible as well, copy right 1890. My baby step journey started with The Shepherds Chapel. Now, still a member I research diligently (Hebrews/Greek) with prayer to stay on course with Our Father. Kenites have worked their way into everything to twist the truth, so I use caution. TSC does teach and break it down in Hebrew and Greek which is great.
Been with TSC for over 16 years. However, I always research. TSC encourages all to do so. Do not lean on man lean on God. :0)
Leo Hohmann writes:
"Yes, World War III and mRNA injections will provide the global culling of human populations that Bill Gates, Henry Kissinger, the Rockefellers and other powerful interests have been advocating for decades."
.
BINGO!
.
Go back to the "Georgia Guide Stones" - where this GENOCIDE-Agenda was carved in Stone for 40 years in America - NOW THEY DO WHAT THEY WROTE - get down humanity to only half a billion . . .
This is my theory. The crypto currency craze was to soften everyone up and walk everyone into digital currency.
All the signs are there. They think they have everything ready to pounce.
"There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged!"
"The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave."
Quotes from Patrick Henry's speech at St. John's Church in Virginia
AMEN!
I do also research in the Greek and Hebrew
Thank you Lioness , many need help and instruction, I know I do... I appreciate the links 🙏😘
Here we go!
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/smart-cities-surveillance-tech/?utm_source=luminate&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=defender&utm_id=20230330
Yes, some are listening. Some are opting out to one degree or another.
I do not believe that any amount of human effort is going to stop what is happening. There is no indication in the prophecies of Revelation or elsewhere that it will. Jesus himself will put an end to it, before the world would otherwise destroy itself.
So opt-out where possible, resist and oppose as you are able, but don't become overly self-protective. What we really can do, those that know it, is spread the word, the words of the true gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ (which may well not be what you would hear "in church", depending on where you went).
Sharing the gospel is becoming a little easier, sometimes, as people (some of them) see their world crumbling to pieces and don't know what to do, and begin to open up to new possibilities. Surrendering one's life to God and being saved through the blood of Jesus is the only truly effective opt-out.
My preferred "checkout experience" is cash, which I'm using more and more these days. Word is getting out: yesterday's visit to the supermarket showed 4 customers employing the "cash" kiosks", while the four "credit only" kiosks stood idle.
Another supermarket only allows credit cards at its kiosks. Those stand idle at a time when the supermarket is being forced to employ more and more cashiers to service the additional cash transactions.
Power to the People.
It's all pre-conditioning for the eventual mark of the beast (the anti-christ, the 'world's savior'), which I believe will be implemented within 10 - 25 yrs.
"He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666."
The Rapture by Jesus for his Bride, the saved souls, dead & alive will commence between 2023-26.
It might or it might not. I was brought up to believe that the tribulation would come in the 1970s. That was off by at least 50 years. Maybe more. But I can tell you, the signs we were looking for then are all over us now.
I tend to think in terms of our resurrection, rather than the rapture. I hear far too many speaking as if they expect to be rescued from persecution by the rapture.
I see no guarantee in scripture that any dedicated follower of Jesus is immune from persecution and martyrdom. "John 15:18 “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 “If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you."
That much is guaranteed. Also, this is somewhat out of context, but it illustrates the principle. "Luke 21:16 “But you will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, other relatives, and friends, and they will put some of you to death, 17 and you will be hated by all people because of My name. 18 “And yet not a hair of your head will perish. 19 “By your endurance you will gain your lives."
And there went Jesus again, speaking about enduring to the end, when he could have simply said "once saved, always saved." I see the two as intertwined, but I see enduring to the end (whatever our end might be) as a proper attitude, and "once saved, always saved" as me-focused and less than the best. Why is it that I virtually never hear the former from church people?
No one knows the date so stop acting like you do
Pretrib rapture is Biblically unsound. We as Christians will have to endure intense persecution and martydom until it is cut short by the rapture...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwXoMNpOhos
I am watching the 5th generation unrestricted warfare/color revolution BY OUR OWN GOVERNMENT enacted upon the citizens of this country.
I am so angry I can hardly breathe.
15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[a] That number is 666.
-- The Book of Revelations
Just remember, they can stamp you all over until the cows come home. What is in your forehead is your/our brain. Keep Christ in your head, heart, works and soul. Their will come a time that if you will worship the false one who comes down first impostering the True Christ you will want for nothing. As it says in the Bible "All the world will be deceived except for the elect. Elect are not above or better than anyone else except for the fact they know the false christ comes down first to deceive. Don't be deceived by satan.
Trying to understand Revelations? You'll be at that my friend, a very long time, and never come to any kind of resolution... "The Revelation to Saint John" purports to be written by the Apostle John while he was exiled on the island of Patmos, was written towards the end of the 1st century when the early Christian church was heavily persecuted by the Romans under the Emperor Domitian, and was written to comfort the original believers. Moreover the early church flatly declared Christ's return was to happen with the lifetime of his first followers... which was 2,000 years ago... It is is full of imagery, metaphors and entendres very relevant to them, the meaning of which have simply become lost to us 2 millenia later. It very nearly wasn't accepted into the Canon and a number of Orthodox and eastern churches reject it.
That said, could it have any bearing on our situation in the here and now? It very well could, the books in the bible are transcendent, miraculous and eternal. Why don't you book an appointment with the Minister / Pastor / Priest of your church and asking him what would be good books to read, where would be a good place to gain some undestanding? In the meantime? Read your bible, pray, search for community with like-minded people. I draw your attention away from Revelations and to St. Paul's Letter to the Ephesians:
"10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."
Two items in conclusion
1. My wife put me onto this, it's well worth your investment of time to listen to it; the Bible Mysteries podcast by Scott Mitchell: https://bible-mysteries.captivate.fm/
2. And to give you an idea of how varied the research is into The Book of Revelations, here's what I found at Amazon.Com https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Book+of+Revelation&crid=13JIGD6YDB550&qid=1680207303&sprefix=book+of+revelation%2Caps%2C166&ref=sr_pg_1
Good Luck!
Capt. Roy
PS As for "the endless evil darkness surrounding humanity" -- bear in mind this is a constant of life on Earth; for whatever reason, Satan is the Lord of this world... 🤔
PPS One last thing: For heaven's sakes: Look to your "preps". Time is growing very short.
Revelation was foretold for this generation. We are The Fig Tree Generation. When Israel 1948 became a Nation. Forty, seventy and 120 years. We are now in the 120. Just watch the signs and we are clearly in your face seeing them. Yes, there has been confusion forever. Satan does have control. Right now, it is spiritual until he gets booted out of heaven with his groupies. Then he will have a short time to gather as many as possible in his camp thinking they will be raptured. Which is a lie/false doctrine. He looks like Christ but is not and do wonders to fool the world. Where will he be? Jerusalem. That is our Fathers favorite place. God gives us many signs when he returns. When the two witnesses preach the Gospel in the streets they will be killed. They will be left there to mock. Three days pass and they return to heaven and then Christ returns. No one knows the hour. God is not the author of confusion..
Satan will have five months.
?
LMAO!!! When he comes here, he will be beautiful kind and loving. One key is we will still be in flesh bodies. That being said, when the TRUE CHRIST comes down instantly we will be changed into spiritual bodies. Because our Father is PURE! Satan cannot do that. BUT he will do wonders that I am sure will be mind blowing. Don't be fooled. If I have to I will duct tape you to a chair. Satan will only have a short period of time. I think it is 4 1/2 months. You can handle that. So, yes when satan is kicked out onto the world ALL will know. It will be Jerusalem. Watch. He will have that short period of time. Remember another key from our Father. The witnesses. Satan will come down peacefully and prosperously. Not with horns and a pitchfork. I think it was Paul and others in the Bible that said they wanted to come down during this time.
PS. I was not laughing at you. I just thought it was sweet when you said "Please say yes." Think about this FT at least when satan comes down you and I will stay in the field and wait for CHRIST.
This evil eon is about to end, next 2 eons will be millennial reign of Christ, and after the new heaven and new earth, and after that is a consummation, when God will be All in all.
For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
The last enemy is being abolished: death.
For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)
PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS (1): 22-28 Concordant Literal NT
And He is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first,
for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell,
and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens.
PAUL TO THE COLOSSIANS 1: 18- 20
https://www.concordant.org/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9mTxAMUM-M&t=15s
Religion does not talk about the Glorious consummation of the aions (ages) misstranslated in KJV ans other main stream versions into "world, "forevers and evers" etc.
Thank you for the links!
The One-World Beast System Is Roaring Into Reality but Is Anyone Listening? That is very telling. Our Father warns us to be watcherman. These are times just like in the days of Noah. I don't need to go into detail. Disgusting!
Notice lots of earthquakes in divers' places? The four hidden dynasties? Political, Financial, Education and Religion all being corrupt and controlled by evil. Of course, they always have but now it is very clear and, in our face, full throttle. Satan and his angels will be kicked out of heaven in the not-so-distant future. Fasten your spiritual seal belts brothers and sisters. God Bless
Yes, we need to research the word if mislead. Stong's Concordance is a great resource.
Please don't lose hope or faith. I have been in more churches than I can count. Just a bunch of bake sales and pass the basket. I felt empty. Finally, praying so much for the truth basically out of nowhere a person came into my life. This church teaches word for word verse by verse God's letter to us. The Original King James Bible. I was so overwhelmed. So, I am grateful they clarify for me in teachings. If you contact them, they will send you a free postage paid gift (CD, The Mark Of the Beast) to help you understand. After that they will send you scripture newsletters monthly that help you with your walk. It shows/reads scripture and then breaks it down and explains God's word. Now that being said. He strongly says to research if ever in doubt with a Strongs Concordance & Websters New World Dictionary. They always say, "Lean on God not man." Also, The King James Companion Bible is a great one to get. Those can be purchased through them if you like. On You Tube >> Pastor Arnold Murray revelation. Their church is in Gravette, Arkansas. I wanted to drive to Arkansas to meet him and his family. Never got there. He passed on in 2017 I think. Might be wrong on that date. Anyway, the family still airs Pastor Murray on Television and You Tube. Dennis Murray the son continues on with the church now. I have Dish Network, so it airs 24/7. I am so grateful for that! They can help you find the correct channel for your network. You can call them Monday thru Friday 7am to 3pm. Call, they are lovely folks. You can order the free offer online also.
Here is the information: https://shepherdschapel.com/
If you look beyond the bake sales, you will find widespread metabolic disease, from eating industrial "food" that is not the food that God has given us.
I consider the KJV to be a good translation but one that has issues like all the translations and all of the extant original language texts do. I sometimes quote phrases or verses from it because it is the one from which I learned many of the Bible verses I know. I don't normally use it for outreach because of the archaic dialect, which most of the people I try to reach do not know. I only know it because I was taught it, growing up, 50-70 years ago.
The other problem I have with the KJV is that the dialect, to many people, is "religious-sounding language", which makes it very easy for them to dismiss the words without a further thought.
I do not and cannot regard the KJV as a religious artifact to be venerated.
I work primarily with the NASB 2020, CSB, ESV, NA28 Greek NT, HMT-W4 Hebrew OT, Rahlfs Greek LXX OT, NIV 2011 (my church's preferred translation, not mine), KJV & NKJV, NLT, Mounce NT, and NET. A multitude of witnesses, as it were.
KJV is full of miss-translations.
just one example out of thousands of them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkazQpO9eVE
You will not find the word “hell”, or phrases such as “eternal punishment” or“forever and ever”, in literal, accuracy-focused English Bible translations like The Concordant Version or Young’s Literal Translation.
This is because the word “hell” andwords like “eternal”, “forever”, and “everlasting” are nowhere to be found in the original language (Hebrew and Greek) manuscripts of the Bible.'
https://forbiddentheology.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Hell-Is-A-Mistranslation-John-Lilley.pdf
Hell, Eternal soul, eternal torment, and human "free will" are PAGAN doctrines.
https://www.concordant.org/
https://studybible.info/version/Rotherham
I glanced through the Forbidden Theology book and found, as expected, 57 references to Augustine and several to Plato. That seems to be where the doctrine comes from, and that is what I was taught growing up. Also, my first two adult churches were conditionalist. My official belief is that God can and will do as he chooses, but I have done my own original-language word studies using better research tools than those shown in the YouTube video linked above, and I do not personally find adequate support for the ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) doctrine/dogma in scripture. It is the doctrine/dogma of the immortal soul (i.e. everyone has one already) in disguise, made explicit in the unbelievable evangelistic phrase "would you rather spend eternity in heaven or in hell".
I have read a number of apologetic essays and even whole books on this subject, and always something made-up is thrown in to cinch the deal, because the doctrine isn't directly found in scripture. I continue asking God to show me one solid scriptural argument supporting the doctrine, not involving flame-proof resurrection bodies or "if there isn't a hell then what did Jesus die to save us from" or "'perish' has a wide range of meanings in the Greek", and he has not done so. The arguments have always reasoned from the conclusion, in one way or another.
The "other" heavily under-quoted neighbor verse to John 3:16, John 3:14-15: “And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him." That is what Jesus died for.
That sounds rather conditional to my ear. But of course, "in him" can also be used to steer off in a less obvious direction, and in the Greek the scholarly discussion explores the matter of "semantic domains" and differences between Hellenistic Greek and Koine, resulting, in some modern translations such as the one above, in "in him" being moved to the end of the clause from where it appears in the Greek. There is again a danger in that of "reasoning from the conclusion", i.e. reasoning from the doctrine, rather than testing it.
The Greek reads "ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ2 ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον." A very bare translation might be "that all believing in him will have eternal life". Bill Mounce, the Greek scholar and Bible translator from whose materials I have been studying Greek, translates it "so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life". The Greek words "ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον", literally "will have life eternal", repeat verbatim at the end of v. 16. "Will have" (or "may have") is in the present active subjunctive, rather than future tense, but I don't have any commentary about that in my reference materials, and either of those does not sound like an unusual way to translate it to me. I still have a great deal of work to do toward understanding Greek verbs.
Maybe it is not so much that I am a conditionalist as that I refuse to employ the above kind of fear (eternal life in hell) to "encourage" non-believers. That is hard to distinguish from what our evil "Rulers" are doing now to the world's population. The Father draws, not me.
The fact you're taking the trouble to learn New Testament Greek puts you way ahead of the curve, still, I'll offer you these items as food for thought...
I once asked a lapsed-Catholic friend of mine “where did the doctrine of The Holy Trinity come from?” And Alan snorted derisively and replied “Hunh! They made it up...” A hard-to-swallow notion for The Faithful, but even harder is to learn, via Tim Callahan's “Secret Origins of the Bible” (1) that YHWH, The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, was known and indeed revered in many other cultures: The Philistines called him Baal, and his sacred beast was the bull. The Carthaginians called him Moloch, and sacrificed their first born to him – echoed in the appalling story of God demanding Abraham sacrifice Isaac... the portion in Genesis about the angel intervening and Abraham finding a ram trapped in the bushes was a later insertion.. In the original Abraham sacrificed Isaac, and that was that. The Greeks called him “Zeus” and again, his sacred animal was the bull, symbolised by Zeus in the form of a bull kidnapping and raping Europa; later on the Romans appropriated him and renamed him “Jupiter”...
None of this stuff is original. The myth of the sacrificed god who is crucified, dead and buried (or whatever) and returns to life on the third day? It’s as old as time. The Egyptians had a version of it, in the myth of Osiris and Set.. The Norse had a version in the form of the death of Baldur the Sun God – except in their version pessimists that they were, Baldur was cheated of resurrection by Loki. Even the American Indians had a version of it in the form of The Maize Spirit! Learn all about it in Tom Harpur’s “The Pagan Christ” (2). I met a Zorastrian once, who demonstrated to me how all the accoutrements of Orthodox Judaism was directly taken from his religion. Eerie.
Thus the conundrum. The fact you’re taking the trouble to learn New Testament Greek is commendable. But that doesn’t change the reality that many of those old Greeks were liars and full of shit, that all of religion is taken from somewhere else and where it isn’t? Well? They made something up on the spot to suit their circumstances. Consider the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory or “The Donation of Constantine”: The church fathers made up the first, the “Donation of Constantine” was an 8th-Century fraud so obvious a Grade 6 student would see through it. And yet The Faithful believe. More appalling examples (among others) are Mormonism or Scientology. Try telling an adherent of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that Joseph Smith was a grifter, a psychopath and an habitual criminal. Good luck with that. Tell the Scientologists that L. Ron Hubbard was a disciple of Aleister Crowley and see if the greasy grey glimmerings of bull-goose enlightenment begins to glow in their eyes. It won’t, I promise you. It’s all connivance and fraud from beginning to end, with the teeniest little bit of genuine Revelation thrown in at the end that’s as tricky as a will-o’-the-wisp ...🤔😳
Probably one of the most useful books you may ever read is “The Trickster and the Paranormal” by George Hansen (3). It’s dense, it’s scholarly, it’s very difficult – took me three tries to eventually complete it – and it will creep the hell out of you, I promise. He quotes at length from researcher John Keele who was moved to ask, not "is there a God?" but the much more disturbing question: "Is God sane?"
I’ll conclude with telling you that despite the above, as far as God and Christ are concerned, I’m like Fox Mulder: I want to believe.🙄
1. https://www.amazon.ca/Secret-Origins-Bible-Tim-Callahan/dp/0965504786/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Secret+Origins+of+the+Bible&sr=8-1
2. https://www.amazon.ca/Pagan-Christ-Recovering-Lost-Light/dp/0887621953/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=the+pagan+christ&sr=8-1
3. https://www.amazon.ca/Trickster-Paranormal-George-P-Hansen/dp/1401000819/ref=sr_1_1?crid=J4SZ96NEXSQY&keywords=the+trickster+and+the+paranormal&qid=1680299459&sprefix=the+trickster+and+the+paranormal%2Caps%2C169&sr=8-1
I am aware of the things you are pointing out. I was raised in a heretical church that rejected a fair amount of orthodoxy. I left after I turned 21, and ultimately took up company with the critical scholars (literally, sometimes -- I've had lunch and talked with some of them), where I got even more earfuls of this kind of information, reading their books and other writings. I may have spent more time with those things than in the Bible. I never added it up. My longest church membership was as a Unitarian Universalist, which church I joined after I left the faith the _second_ time.
I see what you are saying. I also see other things, and I make choices under guidance. My relationship is not with books or languages or scholars. It is with God.
the meaning of the Hebrew "olam" and the Greek "aion" and "aionion" to show that those words never mean "endless duration."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsAxo_D4kH4
[This is part 2 of my too-long comment]
Here is the entry from the Mounce Expository Dictionary, which is less technical than the BDAG, and biblically oriented. (If you wonder why so much Mounce, it is because I study using his grammars, he is a Bible translator -- ESV and NIV -- and these reference works are expensive and I therefore only have a limited collection of them.) And by the way, that bar over the Latin "o" -- ō -- represents omega, hard "o" as in the word "oh", as opposed to omicron, soft "o".
Noun: αἰών (aiōn), GK G172 (S G165), 122x. aiōn can indicate “prolonged time, eternity, an age, a time of the world.” The English word “eon” is derived from this word. The prophets predicted the sufferings of the Messiah, fulfilled in Jesus, and his return “long ago through his holy prophets” (Acts 3:21). When Jesus restored sight to a blind man, the healed man declared, “never since the world began [lit., “from aiōn”] has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind” (Jn. 9:32).
aiōn can represent an “age.” In the parable of the sower, Jesus speaks of a group of seeds choked out by “the cares of this world” (Mk. 4:19). The gospel Paul proclaims is that God’s wisdom is not like the wisdom of “this age,” but is “God’s wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory” (1 Cor. 2:7). Similarly, the mystery of Christ crucified for the salvation of the world and of his residence within the faithful is “the mystery that has been hidden throughout the ages and generations” (Col. 1:26). Jesus promises a reward for anyone who gives up everything for his sake both in this age, and “in the age to come,” he or she will receive eternal life (Mk. 10:29–30).
One frequent idiomatic usage of this word is an expression that literally translates, “unto the ages” or “unto the ages of the ages.” In our Bibles, this is usually translated “forever” (e.g., Lk. 1:33; Jn. 6:51) or “forever and ever” (e.g., Heb. 13:21). God the Father is and that attribute is reported in the NT to extend to Christ: “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever” (Gal. 1:5; Heb. 13:8).See NIDNTT-A, 25–27.
And then here is αἰώνιος:
Adjective: αἰώνιος (aiōnios), GK G173 (S G166), 71x. This adjective typically functions in three settings: the eternity of God and the divine realm; the blessings of salvation; and everlasting conditions that have neither beginning nor end. Forty-three times aiōnios is linked with “life,” particularly in John’s writings.
(1) The only place where aiōnios describes God himself as eternal is Rom. 16:26. However, his glory and Spirit are eternal (Heb. 9:13; 1 Pet. 5:10), and he himself is immortal (1 Tim. 6:16). Jesus is the source of “eternal salvation” (Heb. 5:9), delivering the righteous from “eternal” fire and judgment (Mt. 18:8; 25:41; 2 Thess. 1:9; Heb. 6:2; Jude 7). There is only one sin that will never be forgiven (i.e., “an eternal sin”), namely, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Mk. 3:29–30).
(2) One of the great blessings of salvation is “eternal life.” This is the gift of God for anyone who believes in Jesus (e.g., Jn. 3:16; 1 Tim. 1:16; 6:12; Rom. 2:7; 5:21). Such life originates with God, and we receive it only by his grace. The rich young man who asked Jesus how to obtain eternal life was pointed first to the commandments (indicating the need for righteousness), then to the “impossible” act of faith of selling everything and following him—impossible for a human being, but entirely possible for God (Mt. 19:16; Mk. 10:11).
(3) God’s kingdom is eternal, having [p. 221] neither beginning nor end (2 Pet. 1:11). Those who believe receive an “eternal inheritance” (Heb. 9:15). The resurrected body will also be eternal, dwelling forever in heaven (2 Cor. 5:1ff.). See NIDNTT-A, 25–27.
The first clause of Psalm 45:6 in the LXX (Septuagint, Greek OT) is
ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ θεός, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος,
This is a trickier double form of αἰώνιος where it appears first in the accusative with its article, in agreement with the preposition εἰς, and then in the genitive (possessive), again with its article. I have also seen this form in the NT. It's over my head in terms of the nuances of NT Greek grammar, let alone the older LXX Greek.
A simple raw translation might be something like "your throne, God, is in the forever of forever. The "forever" folds in on itself through the use of the possessive in the 2nd instance. This clause appears in Hebrews 1:8 where it is letter for letter identical (noting that capitalization and punctuation are not in the originals):
Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος,
I was hoping to find more about εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος in my NT references, but I did not.
Meanwhile, back at the video, where we were hearing about αἰώνιος as if it were αἰών ("eon"), and τοῦ αἰῶνος is being treated as plural, as in the English translations I guess, when it is singular in the Greek. (My patience is beginning to wear thin.) But he appears to be quoting other authors, not Greek NT scripture.
There are reasons why the same Greek word might be translated into a variety of English words. Often for readability, but also because the Greek word may mean different things in different contexts. This is the "range of meanings" to which I referred above. They are two different languages that work two different ways!
At this point, the speaker in the video begins to lose all credibility. He might have some good ideas, but he doesn’t appear to be able to read or understand the Greek himself, and he is hard to follow when he has switched from one Greek word to another, apparently without realizing it. Then he says there is no adjective for αἰών when αἰώνιος is the adjective, but with a somewhat different meaning, based upon historical usage. And he again references it in the accusative, not knowing the lexical form. This is very basic stuff.
And by now I have lost track of which scripture he is talking about. Except he seems to be saying "anywhere it appears", but referencing the wrong Greek word, the noun transliterated "eon", not the adjective translated "forever". This makes it rather difficult to validate what he is saying.
"εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος" is indeed an interesting phrase, and I would like to understand it better. Unfortunately, this video was not helping. I might come back to it; I don't know. Right now I have to go.
In closing, another of my favorites is found in Rev. 4:8,
Ἅγιος ἅγιος ἅγιος
κύριος ὁ θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ,
ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος.
"Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come!"
John is actually using poor Greek grammar here, but he appears to do this for a reason in various places, in an attempt to preserve subtleties of the Hebrew while translating into Greek (long story, some other time). There is so much to learn.
Be careful about your sources.
[This comment was too long -- had to split it. This is part 1.]
I'll admit, the derivation of "eternal" from the Greek is "interesting". Part of what makes the Greek and the Hebrew languages interesting, however, is the range of meanings embodied in their words. I tend to assume that the original authors knew these ranges well, and chose their words with the ranges in mind. Then along come the English language translators, picking just one possible interpretation of a word, sometimes one translation committee picking one, and another picking another,, based upon tradition and "readability", and English readers then think that that is what was originally written.
Looking at the Greek of the ending of John 3:16, we have "πᾶς … ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον". I've added "πᾶς" -- "all" as the subject of the verb, appearing earlier in the verse. "ἀλλ’" is a contraction of "ἀλλa’" -- "rather" -- due to the otherwise double vowel. So we have something like "all … rather may have life eternal". Subject and verb are singular, so we have subject-verb agreement. πᾶς is nominative -- the subject -- and ζωὴν (zōēn -- life) is accusative -- the object of the verb. So far, so good. Good translation, nothing tricky that I see. αἰώνιον, the word in question, is an adjective agreeing in gender and number with its noun (accusative singular).
Where, then, does time come in? Not in the adjective, but in the verb. The verb ἔχῃ is in the present active subjunctive which has, I believe, undefined aspect. If I understand this (which I might not -- I warned you about me and Greek verbs), it says nothing about time.
I've watched the video you linked to. As is so often the case, he is confused about pronunciation, but t least he admits it. There is an academic Greek convention (also called Erasmian) and if you simply read the phonetic markings as they appear there on his screen (identifying the specific Greek vowels), there is no confusion, whether using academic or modern Greek pronunciation, or one of the others. It's not important, mostly a pet peeve, but also a "heads up" for me.
Another peculiarity is that he is focusing on the inflected form, αἰώνιον, in the accusative, as opposed to the lexical form, αἰώνιος, in the nominative. It might be a good sign, however, since he is in this instance using the actual inflected form from the biblical text, and since those that only use the lex sometimes turn out to be using Strongs, and may not have any idea what they are looking at.
More concerning is that αἰώνιος (indeterminate as to duration, eternal, everlasting) is a distinct Greek word from αἰών (a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an Aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe).
These definitions are short ones from the Mounce Greek dictionary. I could quote the whole of the BDAG for these two words, but I think it would only be confusing. Suffice it to say that αἰών has multiple ancient meanings, some involving finite time and some not.
For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. - John 3:16
John 3:14-15: And, according as Moses exalts the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of Mankind be exalted, that everyone believing on Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian.
Aionian (eonian.) does not mean eternal, only God is eternal, eternity has no beginning no end. Punishment with no beginning and no end? believers will have life with no beginning and no end? Just makes no sense .
https://www.scripture4all.org/
https://bible-truths.com/
I think I covered this, perhaps poorly, in my too-long, two-part comment.
Thank you. I grew up in a heretical church cult that somehow got a few things right, including some things that you mentioned. I eventually learned to read the Bible for what it said instead of what it is "supposed to say" according to tradition, doctrine, or whatever, although it was a long, long journey. More recently I began studying the ancient Greek, and I am tiptoeing into the Hebrew now. It is a different world. Not totally different by any means, but the emphasis and the patterns of similar words used in different places are preserved, and the words that aren't there aren't there.
I don't know for sure, but I am afraid that many or possibly even most Christians may not have taken even the first step, which is to read the Bible itself at all, regularly.
Those who do might come to different conclusions about different parts, but we can talk about it. We don't have perfect understanding, but we can always learn new things.
Wow. Yes, that is an arduous journey. I have all of the books for research. However, I like The Shepherd's Chapel because they break it down for me and explain. If in doubt I research which they say to do. Thank you Clear. We can talk about it and always learn. Amen
I hadn't heard of The Shepherd's Chapel. I must say they have quite a detailed statement of faith! I find that chapter by chapter and book by book is the way to go, which appears to be what they do. The chapters should be in order, generally, but the book order can vary, as long as all are included.
There is also much historical and cultural context to be learned. Also some passages contain cultural idiom that may not be at all obvious. It is important to pick these things up too, but understand that some such information you receive may be in error. You will need to hear from more than one witness.
There is always more to discover when studying the Bible.
Hell, simply blotted out. Agree no fry like bacon forever and ever.
Free will. We all have free will. Choices we make to do good or evil.
Thanks for the information.
God works all things according to HIS will.
in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will Eph 1: 5
in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will Eph 1: 11
Exodus 4:11, Lamentations 3:37-38, Isiah 46: 9-10, Daniel 4:35, Psalm 103:19, Romans 9:15-16,
Proverbs 21:21 etc
The only entity who possesses free will is Eternal God.
Our choices are dictated by circumstances, and circumstances are directed by God who declares the end from the beginning.
No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day. John 6:44
Watch this video. Compare everything he says with scriptures.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sj0rqQrIDQ
Grace and peace
Compare everything he says with scriptures. Yes, always. Grace and peace to you as well.
PS> Lean on God not man.
Hate to tell you this Lionness but it's ALL pagan doctrines.. everything in Christianity -- just like everything in Judaism -- is borrowed from somewhere else. I'm like Fox Mulder: I want to believe, but... where do we go from here?
You could be right with regard to "Christianity", but there is more to the story than that. I would have totally agreed with you at one time, during a large portion of my life. Eventually, however, I was shown how to see beyond churches and their bad behaviors, and to engage with certain of them (that weren't totally off-track) without engaging in the wrongdoing. Sometimes I have to hold my nose, but assembling together can be a good thing, if things aren't too haywire.
This is not "orthodox", but it is tested. If you want to believe, try asking God (or the universe, or whatever name like that that you want to start with) directly for answers. And then listen, flexibly. The answers come in all kinds of ways.
You already believe in Babylonian Mystery Religion lie. What exactly was "borrowed" and when? Please don't give me statements found in new age websites give me textual and historical proof.
But i can tell you in advance they don't have it. Just like ancient aliens lie was refuted by Dr. Heiser, he also refuted that " everything in Christianity -- just like everything in Judaism -- is borrowed from somewhere else". The notion does not hold water , but it's pushed by the satanic power alone with multiple other deception, organized religions lies, new age, etc. anything goes as long as people stay away from the truth of the Gods word.
Search and you will find
Please don't take offense.. I'm finding things out and I've already come a long way... I'm more than happy to take any direction you care to give me.
FT Oh they will be defeated! BIG TIME! The garbage lies that has been taught to us will be like a lightning bolt what you learn. Satan is a scriptural lawyer and is brilliant at twisting God's Word. So many deceitful lies. Most churches don't teach who the Kenites are. The truth about Adam and Eve and a boat load more. I used to be afraid of Revelation. Again, another fear tactic. Revelation in the bible is God telling us what is coming down the pike so we will not be misled. How beautiful is that? God Bless
Yes. God said, "I HAVE FORETOLD YOU ALL THINGS." He is clearly telling us what is coming to pass. Revelation is for this generation. Nothing to fear.
Oh. Never heard of invidious. I will check it out. Thank you.
Love it! Wow! Who would have thunk it.
A glimpse at the bigger picture:
https://twitter.com/B33Mello/status/1641369447754522624
I feel like a pariah whenever I try to talk about these things to other believers. Of all people, they should recognize the signs of the times from studying their Bibles, but they either look at me blankly or outright deny anything is happening that hasn't happened before. I know not one -aside from a pastor in Hawaii- who understands we cannot correct this politically but that we stand at the edge of time.
You wait until you see the number of imbeciles lining up to get their irises and palm prints scanned... 🤔
I have read about Luciferase but never read it stands for the Lucifer’s race. I recently read that a demon exciorcised by a monk stated that three shots are required to convert DNA and the fetal tissue used in shots had dark magic rituals to change behavior and beliefs of vaccinated. Would have thought this was crazy thinking three years ago but now I do not discount it. This is a spiritual battle.
I agree.
Thanks for book reference 🙏
Guaranteed.